ok spin off on a spin off What a show dog contribute to the breed

[kumhomomma]

How does show dog ribbons improve the breed?

[buzhunter]

They don't lol.

[smokey_joe]

You'd have to ask a staffy owner. lol

[kumhomomma]

no serious there like 2 titles weight pull and show.Most feel without those titles dog dont need to be breed..so thats why all the questions

[buzhunter]

I can't see where vanity enters into the pit bull equation. The same folks who preach that the dog has never been about looks will show you their conf ribbons as if it means something to a bulldog. Maybe I'm not sophisticated enough to grasp the concept.

[kumhomomma]

so all my questions link back in a circle in my head of what makes a true breeder..im sticking with someone who takes care of their dogs(prior to breeding and after breeding) and the pups along with proper home placement of pups and health care of pups prior to rehoming them

[Leon]

I don't think conformation is important in a working dog, because the dogs were bred to for work, and not according to a conformation standard. Thats why in most working breeds, you have a split between show lines and game lines.

[buzhunter]

Only one type of breeder I will ever support and that's the breeder who preserves the breed .

[smokey_joe]

Well, it's b/c of overpopulation. These dogs (and all other breeds) are dying in shelters and people feel the need to breed. It's illegal to prove the dog for it's original purposes, so people have to do something.

The AKC broke away from the APBT and it's reputation and started registering the dogs as AST. These are show dogs, and they are bred to be show dogs. They are bred for conformation.

The UKC registers the dogs as APBT and they do weight pulls to help preserve stamina and "gameness" as much as possible.

People feel that these titles are necessary to improve their stock and the breeds. If people breed for show, they are going to breed dogs that have received ribbons trying to create the next great show dog. If people pull with their dogs, they are going to breed the best pullers trying create the next great puller.

It just depends on what people do with the dogs. People feel that it is necessary to have the dogs titled or ribboned b/c they are trying to improve what they do. They feel that if you only want a pet, then there are more than enough waiting to be adopted at the shelter and there is no reason to breed more pets.

[kumhomomma]

thats what im confused on..preserves it HOW? Guess I need to let it go and stop putting so much thought on it

[kumhomomma]

NO I DONT WANT TO BREED but circle of the byb/breeder shit appears all the time...so I asked..here the shelter dont adopt pits..pisses me off

[smokey_joe]

thats what im confused on..preserves it HOW? Guess I need to let it go and stop putting so much thought on it


If you want to "preserve" the breed, you have to fight the dog.

If you want the breed to evolve, then you have to find different venues the dog can excel. This is why there are pulls and shows.

[smokey_joe]

NO I DONT WANT TO BREED but circle of the byb/breeder shit appears all the time...so I asked..here the shelter dont adopt pits..pisses me off


I didn't think you were. I just didn't know how else to answer the question. Didn't mean to preach to the chior.

[kumhomomma]

but yet many claim a show dog dont do shit for breed.Then does a dog have to ribbon to breed or just compete?

[buzhunter]

The traditional way, Kat. As harsh as it may be to some, at least it's honest.

[smokey_joe]

I guess it depends on the person showing the dog. But, most dogs that excell and are titled or ribboned are going to be bred. People want to pass those traits to the next generation.

[kumhomomma]

here my issues on it so say Kumho(example ONLY) as a house dog,don't breed then goes to show and don't win (now is he show dog since he showed)Do I breed now without hell? Next show he gets ribbon and so forth..when is he "worthy" to breed? Kumho mother mother has "purple ribbons"..what exactly that mean.I mean she a "show dog with ribbons" but at the time none of that made a difference.now im curious..I got all the info on my kumho for MANY gens.Not the typical byb kinda dog

[buzhunter]

If you're not trying to out-do the great dogs of the past at what they did to become great dogs, you should not be breeding anything and calling it "pit bull".

[Dansgrizz]

Purple ribbon bred just means they have had so many generations registered with the UKC. You should try and email Scott dowd who breeds the matrix dogs he is devoted to preserving the conformation of the apbt. Or maybe just read some of his articles.

[George Bailey]

What do you (generic you) think is the purpose of breed standards and registries?

Kumhomomma wrote:
"so all my questions link back in a circle in my head of what makes a true breeder..im sticking with someone who takes care of their dogs(prior to breeding and after breeding) and the pups along with proper home placement of pups and health care of pups prior to rehoming them"

This is very vague to me. What exactly is 'take care of their dogs"? That's an opinion which varies from person to person, as is 'health care of pups'. to one person it might mean spending several thousand dollars on health testing, to another it might mean feeding a high quality food. A 'true breeder' knows enough about their stock to be able to guarantee health and temperament, and that is not possible without testing, not just the parents, but many generations back. It's really not about breeding two pretty dogs as some seem to think. There are many more titles besides conformation championships and weightpull titles that our breed can earn.

smokey_joe, I consider myself a serious 'staffy owner'. I have worked for one of the top AST kennels for over fifteen years, and have a huge amount of respect for people who can trace their linebred pedigrees back fifty years. I'm not talking show wins, either, although they're there, too. If you can, think about where the breed was fifty years ago.

George Bailey

[Dansgrizz]

that's awesome George!! Great post!! ( I alwaysvrun out of thanks an +reps)

[kumhomomma]

here MY VIEW(notice the term MINE) I think dogs need health test and Temperment test PRIOR to locking up.I think top feed should always be feed along with vitamins and shots.I think papers and pedigrees are needed prior to breeding and someone who knows how to read them.I also think puppys living area should be clean and safe.and i got off topic..lmao

[smokey_joe]

smokey_joe, I consider myself a serious 'staffy owner'. I have worked for one of the top AST kennels for over fifteen years, and have a huge amount of respect for people who can trace their linebred pedigrees back fifty years. I'm not talking show wins, either, although they're there, too. If you can, think about where the breed was fifty years ago.

George Bailey

I was speaking very generically. I really don't know all that much about AKC. But when I think AST, I think of show dogs and "bred for conformation." That's not an insult.

[smith family kennels]

hmmm

The ribbons dont mean jack unless they are proven time and time again. For instance its not the ribbons its the points that are earned that the ribbons represent. If your dog goes to many shows and places a ribbon that is points that are being placed toward a title. Titling a dog is not as easy as everyone makes it out to be. Just cause one judge thinks your dog fits the standard of what the breed should look like doesnt mean that another one will but if you have many ribbons (points) from many shows and different judges than that means something. What it means is that several different judges find your dog closer to standard then the other dogs that they competed against. Now when I talk about competed against I dont mean a fun show where you have dogs that look different in many ways. For Example if you go to a ADBA show you will see that when you put the dogs all in the ring that to the general eye they all look standard but to a judge that has trained and looked at this breed. They will be able to pick out flaws that you never knew where there. A CH title is what people are looking for cause what that means is that you have spent the time and money on and for a dog that you have taken to several shows and gotten the approval from many judges that this dog is standard.

Now as far as a working title to me it depends on the registery. It is alot harder to get a weight pull title in the ADBA then it is the UKC. The UKC gives you points for how many pounds per body weight the dog pulls while the ADBA you have to compete against other dogs and you have to place a ribbon to get points toward a title. The ADBA is where its at and where you prove that your dog is the best. Weight pull is one of the closest things we got to using the drive and strength of our dogs to the real thing. Its our way of picking out those that wont give everything they have to those that will. Working titles take a lot of work and alot of training and a good dog that is never willing to quit and does it for you. With a Ace title from the ADBA you have proven your dog to not be a quiter, to be strong, willing, and have a tremdous drive which is what the apbt is all about.

We look for these dogs to breed so that we can produce the best and the closest thing to the past time dogs which we will never be able to get back. We are evolving the breed at the same time that we are preserving some of things that make the apbt a apbt.

Now as far as breeding. You want to look for: testing before bred, good eniviroment, good food and diets, temperment, cleaniness, vet checks and shots updated, Dogs that are close to their ansetors ( in my opinion) we want to try and keep what made them what they are not breed it out of them, no really bad faults that can cause serious health problems many generations later, and the research on the peds to be able to tell what you can of each ansestors' health, temperment, working and showing ability or accomplishments, and any faults that could be passed down if it was recorded or can be seen by a pic.

Im not to with it today so thats the best I can come up with right now lol

[Miakoda]

Dog showing is wonderful outlet for you and your dog both to get out and do something and meet new people. It also enables you to get opinions on your dog's overall structure as well.

It's not a bad thing by any means, and it can be used to point out some flaws that you can work on getting rid of in a breeding program.

With that said, I am one of those that feels the show ring alone ruins breeds and it turns owner/breeders into monsters. All that happens is that people start breeding for certain traits all because that's what a judge favors (larger heads, wider chests, stockier bodies, etc.) and then you have a huge snowball effect of breeders breeding away from the original breed standard and then all of a sudden the breed standard itself is rewritten to follow the new trends in fashion...err...society.

These are working dogs and they need to perform in some working venue.

Of of course form follows function, but we still need to keep the form in check. For instance, I know of a line of gamebred dogs that produces some dogs with extremely bowed elbows and crappy shoulders. Maybe some in history performed well at their activity, but a dog isn't going to last too long with that kind of structure. So we do need to keep our dog's musculoskeletal structure in check.

(And then you've got the show people who will only show under certain judges, will not show under others, and basically buy their dog it's Championship)

[buzhunter]

Good post.

[smith family kennels]

Dog showing is wonderful outlet for you and your dog both to get out and do something and meet new people. It also enables you to get opinions on your dog's overall structure as well.

It's not a bad thing by any means, and it can be used to point out some flaws that you can work on getting rid of in a breeding program.

With that said, I am one of those that feels the show ring alone ruins breeds and it turns owner/breeders into monsters. All that happens is that people start breeding for certain traits all because that's what a judge favors (larger heads, wider chests, stockier bodies, etc.) and then you have a huge snowball effect of breeders breeding away from the original breed standard and then all of a sudden the breed standard itself is rewritten to follow the new trends in fashion...err...society.

These are working dogs and they need to perform in some working venue.

Of of course form follows function, but we still need to keep the form in check. For instance, I know of a line of gamebred dogs that produces some dogs with extremely bowed elbows and crappy shoulders. Maybe some in history performed well at their activity, but a dog isn't going to last too long with that kind of structure. So we do need to keep our dog's musculoskeletal structure in check.

(And then you've got the show people who will only show under certain judges, will not show under others, and basically buy their dog it's Championship)

very true. You have to watch some of the dog enthusiats out there they are not in it for the breed. In my opinion those that show should also work their dogs and when breeding breed out those bad genes. very well said. In my opinion dogs should not be bred for just the show ring or just the weight pull track but for both. NO you probably wont get far breeding for both cause most pull dogs are over done for the show ring but it keeps the standard and the working ability in the dogs. And yes as mean as it sounds I am a firm believer that culling should still be done. A dog that is born with problems bowed elbos and bad shoulders and hips should not be allowed to preform or breed it should be put out of its misery cause in the long run its the dog that suffers.