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Dansgrizz
05-27-2009, 02:47 AM
This is historical information and should only be read as such to better understand the concept of gameness. This is not to be used for any illegal purposes.
This is a chapter entitle "Thought on Gameness" from Gary Hammonds book A Half Century With The American Pit Bull Terrier "the early years"

Webster defines gameness as the will to continue and never quit. those of us who find it a much more desirable trait the the general population realize it is not as simple as the definition would lead us to believe. While i do not believe gameness is as a rare a commodity as we might have been led to believe, I certainly do think that dead gameness is ver rare indeed. So what I'm saying is, in essence, that gameness not only comes in varying degrees, but is relative to many things.
I was recently enlightened to the fact that gameness wasnt all it was cracked up to be. This may be true to some, but it is still the trait that sets our breed apart from others in the canine world. Think for a minute if you will, of the certifiable game creatures on the planet. There are even humans who are pretty game and have shown to be so in the battlefields and in the ring. The beatings i have seen taken by Troy Dorsey and Little Red Lopez would give you chill bumps. There are dog people, many of whom have shown high degrees of gameness. Jim Culbertson and Jean Carpenter, Jan and Jeff Rogers are some of the gamest humans beings i know. Among the animal kingdom there are only a few desperatly game creatures. Some of the bears will take a killing against there own kind, it is said to be rare indeed and usually over breeding rights or territory. Ther wolverine is also a tenacious adversary against almost any other creature, including its own kind. His ability to run a wolf or a Grizzly bear off its kill is often referred to by those who study the beast, as a mad rage knowing no fear, but it sure looks like a form of gameness to me.
There are factors involved in gameness that i feel also diminish the degree. Gamecocks, for example, have no interest in fighting certain times of the year. Female dogs in season often show lesser degrees of gameness and often show no desire for action during this time. You will often see a very different dog due to hormonal influence or fluctuatins throughout the year.
Working dogs of all kinds show varying degrees of gameness. Certain members of the terrier families show to be very game, but this is often varmint game rather than gameness to there own kind. The more i am around the patterdale terriers, the more convinced i am that the posses a very high degree of gameness, especially to any creature they end up in a hole with. The certainly show to be dead game in a high percentage of cases where they should come out of the hole and just wont do it. The old time pack Airedale was notorious for running a big cat for 5 or 6 hours, the keeping him treed for another hour or so and maybe even engaging the cat, only to be killed before the cat could be killed. Many a hog dog has made a catch with its insides dragging the ground from a bad hog. All these things illustrate the most misunderstood traits i know of.
On a recent nature show about the tiger, there was a story of a naturalist studying the tiger in india where he is considered the king of beasts. Seems there are wild dogs there similar to the cape dogs of africa, which are considered to be the most effective pack hunters on the planet. A pack of fifteen of these Asian wild dogs came upon a mature make tiger, with a deer he had killed. The tiger would not relinquish his kill and killed several dogs before they had killed him. The observer was so amazed by this unusual and almost unheard of wild canine behavior that he observed them for several days. They didnt leave the kill until the deer, the tiger, and all the dead dogs were totally consumed and not one bite was shared with the buzzards. Pretty game pack of dogs when you consider their very existence depends on survival. of the species where gameness acts as a negative factor.
Another game dog of a different kind is the sled dog, not just the ones who run the Iditarod, but those who earn there keep in the harsh arctic coniditions.
While many bulldog people look down their noses at the weight pull dogs. I have seen instances when they showed alot of heart by just breaking the cart, much less pulling it through.
Gameness in our dogs often seems to be relative to time, place and condition of the dog. Many people who use gamedogs in working situations will leave them home when they see they are having an off day.
Ive seen all types of people in the dog game and all sorts of ideas on gameness. To the perfectionist, nothing short of crawling across while taking his last breathe is good enough.........
Gamenss is a subject surrounded by philosphy, ideas and misinformation. In spite of all this and the fact that dog fighting is illegal, i believe it is indeed a very important part of our dogs and any of us dumb enough to try and preserve our breed, should try and keep them game as possible. The second verse to this statement, is the fact that this is not only a very elusive trail, but one that seems to bounce around in the gene pool and the game ones seem to come where you find them. Probably the gamest families Ive seen over the years are Walt Komosinksi and Jim Usletons dogs. They seemed pretty consistent in there day, but certainly were not 100%. They are also all but gone today as far as i know.
Like Floyd Boudreax recently said in a group discussion we were having at a confirmation dog show in Louisiana, "They just dont breed true." In other words, you can breed the gamest bitch you know to the gamest male and not not get one offspring that is game??
Many years ago another very game dogman i know, known Danny B and myself, were observing and event where a spectator was calling a dog named Bad Billy a cur, etc. etc. Big Danny turned to me in a voice everyone heard "You know that guy probly aint one tenth as game as that dog, even if he does quit." I say, "Amen to that and long live the game American Pit Bull Terriers and those who appreciate him for what he is."

Quote on gameness Joe Corvino said "Expect them to quit son and when they dont, then think how glad you will be"

Maurice Carver said on game fowl "You cant expect those hens to fight or even be game. They are jsut carrying the gene like your bulldog bitches"

Gary Hammonds said, "Heat and Fatigue will stop more dogs than injury."

Leon
05-27-2009, 10:05 PM
Good read. Thx for posting.

infinity
05-27-2009, 10:06 PM
They just dont breed true." In other words, you can breed the gamest bitch you know to the gamest male and not not get one offspring that is game??

A lot of ppl dont understand this they think becouse of there dogs sire and bitch. Is aswome then there dog is even better than the parrents... not true in most cases.


To the perfectionist, nothing short of crawling across while taking his last breathe is good enough.........


Glad im not a perfectionist in that aspect.

This topic is very good at explaning what game even is, let alone the degrees of it.

Dansgrizz
05-27-2009, 10:14 PM
The majority of owners don't care about there dogs drive or it's gameness. When these dogs came to this country some were pit dogs ALOT were frontier dogs and working dogs. These dogs didn't have the option to quit and were bred as such. To keep the APBT true to it's roots this quality must be preserved. Ability, mouth, and sense are good qualities but dogs can be worked to increase some of those... Gameness is elusive and when it's found it must be prized above all other traits. It's a shame most people don't work there bull dogs in an arena to even see if there dog is the least bit game... No catch work, no weight pull, no nothing.... The minute you stop breeding for gameness your not breeding APBT in my opinion.

RoXy
05-27-2009, 10:36 PM
I care if my dog has drive..I love the fact that she just won't quit. I have looked at many puppies in search of a male like her but all I see is normal ole dogs...LOL.

Great post Dan!

christySYK
05-27-2009, 11:29 PM
the true test of gameness has been outlawed. So yes we have to turn to other aspects, Weight pull is the most common, but I think catch dogs is a more proven test since it matches the dog against an actual other animal.

I would LOVE to hunt but one of the few critters we dont have in Idaho...are Hogs. Though my boys are excellent Squirrel Dogs. :)

Dansgrizz
05-27-2009, 11:37 PM
Varmit dogs are known for there tenacity and intelligence christy. I'm not talking patterdales either. I mean bull dogs that work ranches as varmit catchers n killers. The amount of intelligence and planing it takes is a mental excercise, as is gameness.

infinity
05-27-2009, 11:38 PM
one of my best friends dogs was named crystal it was a hog dog.... It got lose one day (and he lived in the sticks) and took off into the woods we looked for that dog for 3 days. On the fourth day we went to go looking we found her under the shed froof. She was tusked by a boar very badly the dog could barely crawl. But when she seen us she wagged her tail very happy. We took the dog strait to the emergancy pet hospital... Sadly she never made it back home. I miss her she used to follow me home when i walked home from my friends house he would have to come get her or id sit and pet her untill she was content enuf to let me go. That dog in my eyes had game!

thats crystals story

christySYK
05-27-2009, 11:56 PM
Varmit dogs are known for there tenacity and intelligence christy. I'm not talking patterdales either. I mean bull dogs that work ranches as varmit catchers n killers. The amount of intelligence and planing it takes is a mental excercise, as is gameness.

Yeah I am aware of this. I just posted a history on Ratting. They used several bully breeds for that including the Bull and Terrier. :)

Dansgrizz
05-28-2009, 12:07 AM
oh I'm sorry your article didn't mention how those skills carry over to the modern bull dog and how it's connected with gameness. I'm glad you know everything christy thanks for sharing it with us.

christySYK
05-28-2009, 12:19 AM
oh I'm sorry your article didn't mention how those skills carry over to the modern bull dog and how it's connected with gameness. I'm glad you know everything christy thanks for sharing it with us.


WTH, That was rude.

Varmit dogs are known for there tenacity and intelligence christy. I'm not talking patterdales either. I mean bull dogs that work ranches as varmit catchers n killers. The amount of intelligence and planing it takes is a mental excercise, as is gameness.


You didn't ask me how it carried over to todays dogs you just said they where used for vermin and I said I know. Seriously you gotta stop I want to enjoy this forum its great.

Dansgrizz
05-28-2009, 12:26 AM
Oh I just figured you saying you already knew was belittling my statement as if it was known by you and everybody else. I did ask in your ratting thread how it carries over actually. Sorry for my sarcasm.

sw_df27
05-28-2009, 11:17 AM
oh good lord grow up I'm sure people on here want to read what is obviously personal attacks cause of a grudge get over it and lets talk dogs please.............

StaffyDaddy
05-28-2009, 11:26 AM
two hard headed individuals... makes for great pittie parents lol... no wonder!

MADSmith
06-01-2009, 12:42 AM
gameness gameness gameness....you'll know it when you see it. different degrees of gameness is just an excuse for those that don't have a truly deep game dog, imo. these discussions get beat to death on every board. either your dog is afraid of death or he isn't. the body will eventually give out and the dog will quit with enough punishment, not because he curred out but because he couldn't physically scratch back. a dog that quits for any other reason is a cur. plain and simple. btw, curs can sometimes be good matchdogs as long as he never has to go the distance. a nasty mouth can get er done quicklike, but a true gamedog can embrace it's death. it's not how you start, it's how you finish. ;)

Dansgrizz
06-01-2009, 12:46 AM
a dog that quits for any other reason is a cur. plain and simple.

great input!